nimbling

Hi! I'm on Mac OS X, using a magic mouse.

When I scroll zoom in, Spine neatly does this centered around my cursor.
When I scroll zoom out, Spine does.. something else? I think zooming in- and out "around the cursor" should both focus on the same point.
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nimbling
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Nate

I disagree, Spine's zoom out is super awesome. :) If what you want to see when zoomed out is centered on the screen, then zoom out works as you describe. Otherwise, position the mouse toward what you want to see (relative to the center of the view) when you zoom out. Spine's zoom out enables you to pan while zooming out, which almost completely removes any reason to pan normally. It should quickly become very fast and natural. Most software does zoom out wrong, leaving you in an awkward position that has to be fixed with pan.
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Nate

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Pharan

I think it should be an option. :p
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Pharan
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Nate

A checkbox with the label Suboptimal zoom? :D
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Nate

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nimbling

<3 heh :)
thing is: I'm LAZY ;) I zoom out for some overview, then zoom in again.
In the current (and your described) scenario for my "zooming in again" I'd have to move my cursor to go back where I came from.

In my suggested scenario, I could just stroke my mouse a bit without having to care about the position after the initial placement.
I prefer panning with my right mouse button :)

I could be wrong, but I think "Maya does it" too. And that's a good argument for anything, no? ;)
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nimbling
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Pharan

I think the current behavior makes sense at certain zoom ranges.
But many times, I don't actually want the thing I was working on to "run away" from both my cursor and the part of the screen I put it in just because I zoomed out.
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Pharan
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Nate

I'm only for doing what other software does if it makes good sense. I don't want to copy something just because people are used to it. For example, Spine doesn't have any right click context menus anywhere, while almost all apps use them everywhere. IMO they aren't intuitive, you don't know there is a menu until you try to right click, and when you do get a menu it's usually just a junk drawer of options.

My problem with the proposed zoom is that if you zoom into an area, move the mouse, then zoom out, you have often panned your content off the screen and to get it back you have to pan manually. This is a nasty situation, no matter how used to it people might be.

Zooming out for an overview and then back in is what Spine's zoom is designed for. It's true you have to move your mouse cursor slightly, but I don't think it's a reasonable goal that the user doesn't have to move their mouse when using the software. The benefits are that you can zoom out of one area and zoom into another without panning, which is super convenient.

If you mouse cursor is near the center of the screen, it won't pan. Usually the thing you are working on is in the center of the screen, as is your mouse, so it won't "run away".
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Nate

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nimbling

I referred to Maya jokingly (I winked! :) - but yes, it's well done there.
I agree that that, by itself, is not enough to warrant implementation.

Yes, my work is in the center, but my experience is entirely counter to what you describe: with the current implementation, mouse movement is forced, and I have lots of "my work is running away" experiences.

The problem you describe with "zoom in, move mouse, zoom out" should actually not happen when zooming both ways actually happens around the cursor. In the zoomed in state, the absolute movements are way smaller than the ones made at a "zoomed out" state. If zoomed in on an object, it should be impossible to lose the object on zooming out, and effortless to get back to where one was.

I feel we might not agree on the usefulness of this, but I do think an option for this would make sense, as symmetrical zoom behavior is not that exotic.
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nimbling
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Nate

nimbling писал(а):If zoomed in on an object, it should be impossible to lose the object on zooming out, and effortless to get back to where one was.
With your proposed zoom, the only time you end up where you started is if you zoom in, then zoom out with the mouse in the exact same place. If your mouse is anywhere else, after your zoom out you will be panned to a different position. The crucial part is that this kind of zooming makes it difficult for you to control how the zooming pans. You end up needing to use both pan and zoom separately, while with Spine controlling the panning is so effortless you don't even realize you are also panning.

If you think about your mouse as your focus, and that you want your work in the center of your screen, then I think you'd end up appreciating Spine's zoom. The only point I can agree on is that your proposed zoom behavior is common in other software. That is not usually compelling, but we'll consider adding a setting. You can track the task here:
https://waffle.io/EsotericSoftware/spine/cards/5c14352638ef8c001b944ebb

---

BTW, we have a secret setting you might find useful and is already in Spine. Open your prefs.json:

Windows: <user home folder>\Spine\prefs.json
Mac: <user home folder>/Library/Application Support/Spine/prefs.json
Linux: <user home folder>/.spine/prefs.json

Add zoomToMouse:false, just after the opening brace ({). Eg, from this:
{version:<snipped>
To this:
{zoomToMouse:false,version:<snipped>
This will cause the mouse wheel to zoom in/out always using the center of the screen, not the mouse cursor position.

---

BTW, long ago you asked for the middle mouse button to pan:
Graph editor like Maya.
In 3.7.75-beta and later you can have that by adding mouseMiddlePans:true, to the prefs.json, as described above. We'll put it on the settings dialog in 3.8. Issue:
https://waffle.io/EsotericSoftware/spine/cards/5b37b87ba0cc20001ba20613

Also, another option for zoom is Zoom Drag. The default hotkey for that is U. Hold U and click+drag (any mouse button) to zoom. You can also edit your hotkeys.txt for Zoom Move. Eg, if you mapped that to U then you'd hold U and move your mouse up/down to zoom (no need to click). That is especially useful with a pen tablet.
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Nate

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Pharan

Secret settings 8)
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nimbling

I feel special now ;) I tried editing the .json!

A few things:
• I do love zooming in to the mouse position! - I just want zooming out to match :)
• Adding that line to the .json would just remove the half of the interaction I DO like ;)
•Except that spine reverted the .json to it's pre-"zoomToMouse:false" state on startup.
• I tried the U + Mouse shortcut, but I feel it's using the wrong axis. I know I'm mentioning this at my own peril ;) but Adobe and Autodesk use the sideways motion, which I think, ergonomically, makes sense (the way I hold a mouse makes horizontal movement easier).
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nimbling
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Nate

Oops, the zoomToMouse setting _is_ in the UI after all:


I wonder if zooming out using the center of the viewport (like when zoomToMouse is enabled) is what you want (but with zoom in using the mouse)? This seems to be how Photoshop zoom works. It would still be a separate setting from zoomToMouse, which is useful for using a pen. Maybe it is separated into two settings, zoomInToMouse and zoomOutToMouse. When unchecked, the center of the viewport is used.

Maybe we can make Zoom Drag and Zoom Move work with either axis (whichever moved farther). Though the amount needed to move the mouse isn't very far. I personally use a trackball!
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Nate

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nimbling

Found it! :)
While I was sceptical at first (I was adamant to get that zoom-in-out symmetry) - I'm really liking the consistency of zooming in and out to the center of the screen - but I'm still inclined to believe that's because of the consistency, and I'm wondering if this wouldn't be EVEN better if we had the same thing but for the mouse position :)

I checked (I use Illustrator) - and they use the cursor position for both in- and out.

For now: happy!
For the future: can haz functional symmetry pretty plz?
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nimbling
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Erikari

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Erikari

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nimbling

Erikari: I had to chew on your answer a bit, and I think I must have been unclear :)

I meant symmetry in functionality (zoom out being around the same mouse position as zoom in)

Symmetry and mirroring on the bones and in the runtimes is working as expected! (And appreciated! ;) )
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nimbling
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Erikari

Sorry for misunderstanding! And here I thought I could make myself useful :P
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Erikari

Erikari
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nimbling

Hey, no joke, I was just helping out a new Spine Pro user (coming from After effects), and he had the exact same feedback I did: he was missing zoom in- and out being around the same point.

---

Is there any chance we'll get this feature?

After a while of working with "zoom to mouse" disabled, I decided I'd give it a shot again, but zoom out just feels broken if it's not from the same point I just zoomed in to.

For me, I just zoom in and out without moving the piece of plastic I'm holding. It's no extra effort to not move the mouse. Panning with right-click-drag feels totally natural to me, and I'd be happier if zoom did not interfere with it.

Nate, in your last reply you did mention the possibility of adding this as an option.
I'd check that option SO HARD if I found it in the Spine prefs. Could you please put it in?
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nimbling
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Shiu

Hello nimbling, we've been very busy with other areas in Spine, but I've just created another zoom related issue, so there is a chance both will get handled at the same time. I'm afraid I can't give you an ETA.
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Shiu

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nimbling

Much obliged! Looking forward to it :)
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